Gaining Faith

For purposes of Loss of Faith/Addiction, do permanent miracles count each year? Only the upkeep? Only the expense of the first appearance? I can't believe this slipped my mind until I actually started playing the game.

If the miracle benefit is permanent and you pay upkeep, I would say yes it does. It shows your continual interest in your followers. So each year this permanent miracle's upkeep cost will affect loss/ gain of faith in your followers IF it (the miracle) effects your followers.

I concur with Fate. Somewhat...

I think that if the permanent miracle affects your followers, then the cost triggers belief gain as with any other miracle and both cost and upkeep apply during maintenance to the prevention of your followers' Loss of Belief or inadvertent slip into Dependency. So, when you create it, the initial belief applies to gain you belief immediately and as a factor during maintenance. Meanwhile in subsequent years, your upkeep for the miracle will be the determining factor during maintenance.

Although...

I'm not sure you would gain belief from the upkeep every year.

While the miracle is an ever-present source of proof that you still favor them, do their tiny mortal minds really grasp the concept that something created by you of that magnitude has to be maintained by you? You're a god after all and it is a gift from you. Surely you'd never take it away, oh benevolent one. After a year would they still be impressed by it or would they be taking it for granted as just being there for them. Mortals are pretty easy to impress but get jaded to things that are ever present. Unless there's a decided possibility you're going to let the miracle fade at the end of the year, I'd say they're not likely to be impressed if you just sustain it. You'd have to create it from scratch to generate belief from it every year.

But that's just how I see it. Anyone with a different take on things?

So to make a more specific example, if I create a permanent champion, the upkeep only counts against Loss/Dependancy if the champion is active?

Note: I don't think the champion should generate BELIEF unless they're active. I'm asking about Loss/Dependancy, that seemingly broad line that is so easy to cross.

I'd like to see Fate's answer to this first. I'm not sure there's enough information included in the question this time. A permanent miracle on a champion comes in a vast, many varieties. Everything from "I turn their skin vibrant orange" to "I endow them with natural claws and scales which add to their body score in combat." Then there are the example champions in the NGH where you have examples of actual spell caster heroes that have powers they can activate in combat.

In regards to champions and heroes, permanent miracles are very situation specific, and I was answering the original question from the concept of "I erect a wall of seawater and kelp at the edge of the harbor to keep out enemy ships."

Honestly, it all depends on when you spend belief, whether it creates conflicts or affects conflicts, and whether your followers are present to witness the miracle. It's kind of a judgment call for the GM (Fate). The bigger question is "Does it HELP your people?" If the answer is yes, then it counts during maintenance. I don't think how many times it helps your people comes into question though. In that regard, I don't know what to tell you.

I agree with Varchild.

This is dependent on the situation. If you are running the game as Fate, you will have to make that judgement call. It is your world. In some cases I would say yes. In others no.

Good questions overall.