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Midaea
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PostSubject: A Bunch of Questions   Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:35 am

Please keep in mind that I'm new to NGoM, so there are things that I haven't fully read (but I'm working on that).

However, I've already ran into a question that I've yet to find the answer to:

In the conflict example, a god has some 'particularly devout' priests with D6+2 Spirit. That's all fine and dandy, but... umm... how?

It's my understanding that a god's followers have a D8 in either Body, Mind or Spirit, and a D6 in everything else.

Just trying to figure this one out! :-)


In addition, I have a MAJOR problem I'm trying to sort out:

Let's use Marcus, Eliminator of Lost Souls (pg 91) as an example.

If a (significant) Alteration Miracle is used to give Marcus the fighting prowess of a veteran fighter [D8], then what, he had a d4 Body before that, and the (significant) Miracle increased it by two steps?

Otherwise, it would actually have to be a (significant) Innovation Miracle to make him (umm, presumably go from nothing to) a d8 Body warrior, which wouldn't make sense, since people can already fight and it shouldn't be an Innovation Miracle at all.

My understanding is that it should be an Alteration Miracle, however a (minor) one that increases his Die Size by One Step (to go from d6 to d8 Body), since Innovation Miracles make something from nothing, and Alteration Miracles increase/decrease the proficiency/ability of something that was already there.

Of course, I could be wrong - and if I am I don't care, as long as someone will explain WHY. :-)
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PostSubject: Re: A Bunch of Questions   Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:45 am

Hi Midaea,

I will do my best to answer your questions.

Quote :
In the conflict example, a god has some 'particularly devout' priests with D6+2 Spirit. That's all fine and dandy, but... umm... how?


Usually this is done with miracles. Here is the book.

An Alteration is any Miracle that enhances or degrades an existing resource (befuddling the mind of a group of hunters, golden armor magically appearing on a band of warriors), while an Innovation is any Miracle that creates or destroys a resource (a castle rises from the ground, a lightning bolt striking the enemy king). The distinction is easy to make during conflict resolution—Alterations increase or decrease dice sizes, while Innovations grant dice or destroy/cancel dice. Outside conflict resolution the same metrics are used to determine which is which, the final decision being up to the GM.

So with this you can give your priest bonuses. You can go up to 1/2 of your base die value in bonuses. These die bonuses can also come in the form of skills or special attributes.

We plan to work on a book for followers of the gods describing the bonuses and skills. In fact if you look through the forum you will find some rules on technology hidden there made up for the campaign. Look in the campaign forum.

The second question looks like a misread. I had to reread it again myself to figure it out. But from what I see there are two miracles places. One alters the shadows aroun him to form a cloak around the hero for a d8 effect. There was no prior die on this. The other one is significant due to the upgrade of the size of the unit, not the die type. Marcus starts off wth a d8 which does not change. What does change is how many units he can fight. His scale is now of a household which is ten.

Here is the section from the book:

Barok would like to make the Miracle legendary, but doubts he can spare the Belief, so he instead makes it significant. A significant alteration has a base cost of 4. (Looking at the “Miracle’s and Conflicts” sidebar, Barok’s player notes that a significant Miracle has a base die size of d8 in conflicts. So, when someone else is trying to see Marcus, Marcus will roll a d8 against the observer’s Mind roll to sneak by him—not great, but hopefully good enough.)
Barok then looks at the elements that go into this Miracle’s cost factor. He lists these as follows:
Duration: Permanent (hero); +3.
Domain: The Miracle falls within Barok’s domain as God of the Night; –2.
Inclinations: The Miracle is a creation Miracle, with which Barok is in balance; +0.
Location: Barok empowers Marcus in his own city; +0.
Scale: Individual (the Miracle affects only Marcus); +0.
Total: +1.
So, the total cost for this Miracle is 4 (the base cost) x 1 (the multiplier for a cost factor of 1) = 4. Barok congratulates himself on thinking of such an inexpensive Miracle.
Barok then moves on to the Miracle that grants Marcus superhuman fighting skill. He doesn’t have much Belief to spare, so he’d like Marcus to be the equivalent of 10 veteran soldiers. Though that’s not enough to make him a real threat on a battlefield, it should allow him to deal with any squads of guards he encounters during his assassination missions.
Veteran fighters roll d8s in conflicts, so consulting the “Miracles and Conflicts” sidebar, Barok’s player sees that the Miracle will again be significant, so another significant alteration, which has a base cost of 4. Barok’s player then determines the Miracle’s cost factor.
Duration: Permanent (hero); +3.
Domain: The Miracle does not fall within Barok’s domain as God of the Night; +0.
Inclinations: The Miracle is a transformation Miracle, with which Barok is in harmony; –1.
Location: Barok empowers Marcus in his own city; +0.
Scale: Household (Marcus is the equivalent of 10 soldiers); +1.
Total: +3.
Barok’s player then consults Table #–6: Cost Factor Multiplier and sees that a cost factor of 3 means he has to multiply the base cost by 4. So, the total cost for this Miracle is 4 (the base cost) x 4 (the multiplier for a cost factor of 3) = 16.
Barok combines the cost of these two Miracles (4 + 16) and determines that Marcus’s total cost in Belief is 20—a bit expensive for a new god, but certainly affordable. Of course, Barok will have to pay additional Belief every year to keep Marcus around, but he hopes that he’ll be getting more Belief as Marcus slays his rivals’ priests and Barok converts their followers.

Hope this helps
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PostSubject: Re: A Bunch of Questions   Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:26 am

Quote :
Veteran fighters roll d8s in conflicts, so consulting the “Miracles and Conflicts” sidebar, Barok’s player sees that the Miracle will again be significant, so another significant alteration,

Okay, but how, where and why is this a significant alteration? Not a minor, not a major, but specifically significant?

Quote :
The other one is significant due to the upgrade of the size of the unit, not the die type. Marcus starts off wth a d8 which does not change. What does change is how many units he can fight. His scale is now of a household which is ten.

The fact that he fights like 10 men is covered under scale, which adds +1 the multiplier (for being household), and has nothing to do with the Base Cost. Right?

I just can't figure out how, and by what table, the miracle was determined to be significant.

Is that just simply ad-hoc by the GM/Fate just so there can be a Base Cost?
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PostSubject: Re: A Bunch of Questions   Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:55 am

Midaea wrote:
Quote :
The other one is significant due to the upgrade of the size of the unit, not the die type. Marcus starts off wth a d8 which does not change. What does change is how many units he can fight. His scale is now of a household which is ten.


The fact that he fights like 10 men is covered under scale, which adds +1 the multiplier (for being household), and has nothing to do with the Base Cost. Right?

I just can't figure out how, and by what table, the miracle was determined to be significant.

Is that just simply ad-hoc by the GM/Fate just so there can be a Base Cost?

This particular issue has caused a few discussions on the board so far. The miracle's definition method is in fact in error. The miracle is not significant, or should not be by the rules given for creating miracles in the book. Fate has, on the boards (see my thread on the strength of forty men), provided an alternative definition of alteration miracles base cost based on how many steps in scale you increase the size of the unit added to whatever other steps in dice you add, however by the basic rules (excluding any added on the forums) size of the unit is based purely on the scale function in miracle definition (and I still adhere to that rule personally). I, and any of my friends, have chalked up the miracle as one more of the miracle typo's in the book. There are a great deal of mathematics errors when it comes to miracle write ups. Best to bring any questions here and let the world take a look see.

By the rules, the miracle on Barok that makes him a household unit is incorrect. It should be a Minor Alteration (Base Cost: 3, Barok fights like a Veteran Soldier) and Scale: Household (+1, Barok fights like ten men) With all the rest the same.

Fate has his way of correcting that miracle's problems, I have mine. Honestly, it makes more sense to work that miracle using Scale for change in the size of the unit. After all, Scale affects the multiplier. Making it (size/fighting as multiple heroes) an alteration shift, like with the dice steps, will make it far cheaper to get a Continent scale hero.

Anyway, my two cents. Just tossing 'em in.
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PostSubject: Re: A Bunch of Questions   Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:28 pm

Varchild is correct in his version, but the other version is correct as there is more than one way to skin a cat.

I would suggest Varchild's method.

As stated some of the miracle costs do not add up properly.

Other books and their miracles (such as Legendary Artifacts) do not suffer from this problem.

There is a thread where we talk about this here http://darkskullstudios.forumotion.com/rules-discussion-f3/the-strength-of-forty-men-t22.htm

And my final word on the matter is :

My philosophy on the miracles is this, if it is within reason and your group can agree on the miracle then yes you can do it.
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