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 Start at 0 or 1? - Belief Cost Factor/Multiplier

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Varchild_Marquee
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PostSubject: Start at 0 or 1? - Belief Cost Factor/Multiplier   Sat Mar 01, 2008 11:05 pm

A player in my game was using one of the example miracles from the NGoM NGH to design a miracle and we had an issue agreeing on the cost.

I tried to explain to him that the example miracles in the book aren't always coded properly, and he had trouble accepting this. I told him there was discussion on the forums about the problem with the costs in the book, but I have found no explanation anywhere on the forum of the exact errata involved. So I'm just posting the problem from scratch.


I need some explanation of how to determine a miracle's cost factor because I'm starting to get confused on how you properly determine the cost factor and how and to what it applies.

The miracle in question is on page 91 of the NGH. The whole, "Barok granting Marcus superhuman fighting skill" passage at the bottom of the right hand column.

My player's god would have the following adjustments when trying to realize this miracle:

Miracle Type: Significant Alteration (Base Cost of 4)

Domain: War is in the god's Secondary Domains -1
Duration: The god wants this ability to be Permanent +3
Inclinations: Transformation is in Harmony for this god. -1
Location: The hero would be empowered within the god's territory. +0
Scale: Household (The hero is the equivalent of 10 soldiers.) +1

Cost Factor Total: +2

The issue the player and I have with one another is: Do you start with a value of 0 or 1 for the purposes of referencing the cost multiplier on the Belief Cost Multiplier table?

He's decided to wait until we have an answer to this problem from the forums before he makes his hero.

(Incidentally, I'm glad he found it, this was part of the answer to my other question earlier. The strength of forty men... I have made notes in my notes of this page number for future reference.)
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PostSubject: Re: Start at 0 or 1? - Belief Cost Factor/Multiplier   Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:15 am

Thanks for pointing this out as I believe I was doing it all wrong. I believe you actually start at zero. I would assume a minimum of 1 though after all additions and subtrations..
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Nedako
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PostSubject: Re: Start at 0 or 1? - Belief Cost Factor/Multiplier   Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:56 pm

that makes the most sence to me...even though as a player, the thought of a miracle thats costs me 0 points to cast is kinda cool...
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PostSubject: Re: Start at 0 or 1? - Belief Cost Factor/Multiplier   Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:27 pm

I thought the minimal cost of a miracle was 1; I also thought the multiple started at 1.

Disclaimer: I role-play a god, but live as a mortal. I've made mistakes and will make more - the above may be one of them.
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PostSubject: Re: Start at 0 or 1? - Belief Cost Factor/Multiplier   Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:48 pm

Rhishisikk wrote:
I thought the minimal cost of a miracle was 1; I also thought the multiple started at 1.

See, that's how I understand it as well, meaning the + or - Belief cost is applied to a base of 1, and cannot be reduced below 1. If ti is the other way, we may have miscalculated a number of miracles, costing some gods more belief than it should have...


Note: Gods make mistakes also, look at the platypus of Australia, the aye-aye of Madigascar, and the idea of comedy placed in the heads of Tom Green and Carrottop.


Last edited by Varchild_Marquee on Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Start at 0 or 1? - Belief Cost Factor/Multiplier   Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:02 am

Hello everyone,

The text is kinda small but it is there for the rule. Go to page 84 in the Core Rulebook. Look on the table in the second column that continues from the first. At the bottom it says. * The cost factor cannot drop below 1.

So every miracle has a cost multiplier of 1. But also remember the cost is 1/2 for The Celestial Gardens and there is 0 cost in your own Celestial Sphere/ Heaven for any type.

Remember also it is where the miracle will take effect that will contribute to the cost as well.

If you do a permanent miracle in your heaven for 0 cost on a hero, you still have to pay for the upkeep the following year for that miracle.

Also transporting a mortal to your heavenly abode has a cost depending on the miracle you cast to transport him there.

Anyway hope that helps.
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PostSubject: Re: Start at 0 or 1? - Belief Cost Factor/Multiplier   Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:24 am

Let me see if I understand this right. as long as I pay the miracle cost to get a hero to my realm, i can make a free hero with whatever i want on him...and the following year i have to pay the upkeep cost if he is permanent? study
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PostSubject: Re: Start at 0 or 1? - Belief Cost Factor/Multiplier   Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:15 pm

Fate wrote:
The text is kinda small but it is there for the rule. Go to page 84 in the Core Rulebook. Look on the table in the second column that continues from the first. At the bottom it says. * The cost factor cannot drop below 1.

So every miracle has a cost multiplier of 1. ...Anyway hope that helps.

Actually, this time, no. That doesn't help. The question is do you start at 0 or 1 when adding the Cost Factor plus-and-minuses? We know the cost factor cannot drop below 1, but what value do you add the Cost factor to before referencing the chart? 1? or 0?
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PostSubject: Re: Start at 0 or 1? - Belief Cost Factor/Multiplier   Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:28 pm

Okay look... An example of the problem and a simplification to the question.

Varchild_Marquee wrote:
The miracle in question is on page 91 of the NGH. The whole, "Barok granting Marcus superhuman fighting skill" passage at the bottom of the right hand column.

My player's god would have the following adjustments when trying to realize this miracle:

Miracle Type: Significant Alteration (Base Cost of 4)

Domain: War is in the god's Secondary Domains -1
Duration: The god wants this ability to be Permanent +3
Inclinations: Transformation is in Harmony for this god. -1
Location: The hero would be empowered within the god's territory. +0
Scale: Household (The hero is the equivalent of 10 soldiers.) +1

Cost Factor Total: +2

So when referencing the table to find the Belief Cost Multiplier, do I use column 2 (x2) or column 3 (x4)?
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PostSubject: Re: Start at 0 or 1? - Belief Cost Factor/Multiplier   Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:28 pm

There is no starting off with an additional 1.

The reason the rule is mentioned is because You cannot go below 1, but there is nothing that says 1 is added to your miracles.

You just calculate your modifiers right there and you are correct the Cost Factor is 2. I hope it was obvious. I see where there might be some confusion, but hopefully people will just add their modifiers first and come out with the total. Nowhere in the rule book does it say to start off at 1 on the multiplier chart. You just end up at 1 as that is the minimum cost.

Here is another example from the book.

Barok then looks at the elements that go into this Miracle’s cost factor. He lists these as follows:
Duration: Permanent (hero); +3.
Domain: The Miracle falls within Barok’s domain as God of the Night; –2.
Inclinations: The Miracle is a creation Miracle, with which Barok is in balance; +0.
Location: Barok empowers Marcus in his own city; +0.
Scale: Individual (the Miracle affects only Marcus); +0.
Total: +1.
So, the total cost for this Miracle is 4 (the base cost) x 1 (the multiplier for a cost factor of 1) = 4. Barok congratulates himself on thinking of such an inexpensive Miracle.

So to calculate this miracle there is no 1 there. Nor should there be an additional 1.

To answer your question you start off with a 0 for cost factor (nothing has been calculated so there is no 1 point there) but you will end up at 1 at the minimum.

There is no errata to be found here. Just simply add up the numbers (- and +) then find the cost factor multiplier on the chart. Do not add an additional 1 to this cost. But you must have a minimum cost factor of 1 at the end.

Let me see if I understand this right. as long as I pay the miracle cost to get a hero to my realm, i can make a free hero with whatever i want on him...and the following year i have to pay the upkeep cost if he is permanent?

Yes farao
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PostSubject: Re: Start at 0 or 1? - Belief Cost Factor/Multiplier   Wed Mar 05, 2008 2:49 am

Fate wrote:
There is no starting off with an additional 1. ...
To answer your question you start off with a 0 for cost factor (nothing has been calculated so there is no 1 point there) but you will end up at 1 at the minimum.

There is no errata to be found here. Just simply add up the numbers (- and +) then find the cost factor multiplier on the chart. Do not add an additional 1 to this cost. ...

That said my group has been calculating cost factors wrong. We've been applying the Cost Factor to the Belief Cost Multiplier table like column shifts, starting at 1 and adding or subtracting from there as needed. We will correct this next session, and possible return some Belief if any excess was lost due to this error. It is not errata. It is simply a misunderstood mechanic. However, thank you very much for helping clear up the misunderstanding.

afro cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Start at 0 or 1? - Belief Cost Factor/Multiplier   Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:17 am

Not a problem, that is why this forum is here.

Hopefully people will check out these posts before asking any of the same questions.

albino
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PostSubject: Re: Start at 0 or 1? - Belief Cost Factor/Multiplier   Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:16 pm

YOU FOOLS! Now, with that encouragement, Typhon can drop miracles like - well, like a god, I suppose. Dang addiction threshold.

And those Battle Sheep the next town over are about to get just that much buff, or more numerous. Probably both, given some of the divine-level stupid that's about to take place. Maybe I need to grant my followers advanced knowledge of lubricants before the 'hero' I see coming makes his rounds to my area of town...
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PostSubject: Re: Start at 0 or 1? - Belief Cost Factor/Multiplier   Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:08 pm

Be afraid, be very afraid.. Bed-hopper is making his hero as strong as ten virile men, and increasing his prowess by three steps! No amount of lubricant will protect your people from that powerful an assault!
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PostSubject: Re: Start at 0 or 1? - Belief Cost Factor/Multiplier   Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:45 am

Fate wrote:

Let me see if I understand this right. as long as I pay the miracle cost to get a hero to my realm, i can make a free hero with whatever i want on him...and the following year i have to pay the upkeep cost if he is permanent?

Yes farao

Okay, I'm confused. In the new god's handbook it says very specifically that nothing mortal can enter or exist in the celestial spheres. How then do you get your hero there to empower him?
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