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 The strength of forty men...

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PostSubject: The strength of forty men...   Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:12 pm

I'm not sure I understand how the resources get destroyed/affected, let me see if I understand this right, if I don't have it right, could you clarify so I can see where I'm misunderstanding how it works.

If a god uses a miracle to give an average (d6 Body) individual in his tribe the strength of ten select men (d8 body) for the duration of one battle.

(Minor Alteration, Household scale Miracle. right?) I think I have defining Miracles down, but conflict... This is where the confusion starts:

1.) That altered unit goes into combat and is facing four household scale units, then both sides roll 4 dice, right?

2.) But if the altered unit is facing 1 Village scale unit, then both sides only get 1 dice and the household scale (altered) unit is reduced to rolling with a d4 instead of his d8. Am I still on target with this?

Okay two left and then I have a final question pertaining to "special units."

3.) The altered unit is facing four above-average individual units (d6+2). The altered unit rolls 1d8. The individual units would not roll, having been reduced to 1 +2? So 3 each?

4.) Okay, what if the altered unit is working with 9 other household size units of average skill (d6) against a village scale veteran unit (d8 body)?

The NGH, at first says while normally you would roll one dice for each side (village scale conflict), because the qualities differ in the units on one side, you have to roll for each household size unit. So, there would be a roll of 9d6 and 1d8, and on the other side 10d8.

However in the same paragraph without any set up for this surprise point, it then says Fate has two options: to use the average or more populous resource, or to split the conflict into separate conflicts. The example given for the latter doesn't match the example set up for the explanation of this problem in the NGH (p. 76), and that is partly what has me confused.

So what is the default ruling for this scenario?
Roll 1d8 vs. 1 for the altered unit's side (because the altered unit won't make a difference)?
Roll 10d8 vs. 9d6 plus 1d8? ...or...
Roll 1d8 vs. 1d8 and 9d6 vs. 9d8?

Now the last question I have... Regarding special units...

5.) Can you have a special unit valued as a specific number of units?

For instance, a party of 12 explorers encounter a beast of monsterous proportions that acts as 4 household size units in combat. Thus, the beast would require four successful unit defeats to remove all its resources before it fell completely. While at the same time, though the beast survives multiple hits, the explorers are still able to reduce the threat by depleting the number of units worth of diceeach time it takes a loss.
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PostSubject: Re: The strength of forty men...   Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:59 pm

Hi Varchild let me do my best to answer:

If a god uses a miracle to give an average (d6 Body) individual in his tribe the strength of ten select men (d8 body) for the duration of one battle.

(Minor Alteration, Household scale Miracle. right?) I think I have defining Miracles down, but conflict... This is where the confusion starts:

1.) That altered unit goes into combat and is facing four household scale units, then both sides roll 4 dice, right?


Sounds like you got the miracle right, but I am confused. You stated in your first sentence it is an individual, but the miracle is for a household scale unit and you stated differently.

I will assume it is an altered unit of ten men. Since it is a single unit you only roll a D8 for that unit (ten men with the strength of ten men) vs 4 d6 household units. This might turn out bad for the single unit unless the 4 household units roll poorly.

I will answer the rest later as I need to get to work.
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PostSubject: Re: The strength of forty men...   Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:06 pm

I'm just the art director but I think I can answer these.
1)One side has a soldier(D6) whom you cast a minor alteration miracle on a household scale to bring him up to a D8 on a household scale. He's facing four normal household scale units (40 people). For this conflict, the pumped soldier would roll one D8 while the group of 40 rolls four D6's.
2)Correct. Your household scale soldier with a D8 stat is reduced two die steps because he's on a different scale. The one soldier would roll a D4 while the village scale unit (100 people) would roll a D6 if they're mature fighters.
3)Assuming this is a single conflict and not four different battles, the four soldiers would simply have their 1+2 so a total of 3. Not 3 for each one. The altered unit would be rolling a D8 to beat it.

Richard can answer this last one after he gets off work.
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PostSubject: Re: The strength of forty men...   Thu Feb 21, 2008 12:30 am

Fate wrote:
If a god uses a miracle to give an average (d6 Body) individual in his tribe the strength of ten select men (d8 body) for the duration of one battle.

(Minor Alteration, Household scale Miracle. right?)


Sounds like you got the miracle right, but I am confused. You stated in your first sentence it is an individual, but the miracle is for a household scale unit and you stated differently.

I will assume it is an altered unit of ten men. Since it is a single unit you only roll a D8 for that unit (ten men with the strength of ten men) vs 4 d6 household units. This might turn out bad for the single unit unless the 4 household units roll poorly.

See I told you this was where the confusion starts. I guess I don't have the miracles down yet as well as I thought. Thanks for the clarification. So then... A Household scale affects 10 individual scale units, it doesn't increase a single individual scale unit from individual scale to household scale... Okay that corrected, it is just a single individual scale unit (Some call me... Tim!) being pumped up to a Household scale threat level, and the other questions should still apply as they were poised.

This was truly meant to be a question about how the dice pool is defined for the different types of conflict. I have been thinking if I could have asked the question more simply than I did, and I think I need to revise it. Okay, here's a second try at what I was asking regarding the GM's assessment of combat with an "altered" individual scale resource of Veteran skill.

Okay, here goes nothing:

To help me understand how to adjudicate dice pools for "altered" units, explain what the dice pools would be for the purpose of conflict resolution in the following circumstances.

1) A Household scale conflict between one Veteran Individual Scale unit affected by a miracle to increase his threat to Household scale and four Average Household Scale units.

2) A Village scale conflict between one Veteran Individual Scale unit affected by a miracle to increase his threat to Household scale and one Average Village Scale unit.

3) An Individual scale conflict between one Veteran Individual Scale unit affected by a miracle to increase his threat to Household scale and four Above-average (d6+2) Individual Scale units.

4) A Village scale conflict between a combined force of one Veteran Individual Scale unit affected by a miracle to increase his threat to Household scale and nine Average Household scale units against one Veteran Village scale unit.


My last question (I think) remains unchanged regarding the special units. Is it possible to have individual untis that represent a specific number of specific scale units in a conflict (as I described in the first post)?
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PostSubject: Re: The strength of forty men...   Thu Feb 21, 2008 12:44 am

JoeSlucher wrote:
1)One side has a soldier(D6) whom you cast a minor alteration miracle on a household scale to bring him up to a D8 on a household scale. He's facing four normal household scale units (40 people). For this conflict, the pumped soldier would roll one D8 while the group of 40 rolls four D6's.

2)Correct. Your household scale soldier with a D8 stat is reduced two die steps because he's on a different scale. The one soldier would roll a D4 while the village scale unit (100 people) would roll a D6 if they're mature fighters.

3)Assuming this is a single conflict and not four different battles, the four soldiers would simply have their 1+2 so a total of 3. Not 3 for each one. The altered unit would be rolling a D8 to beat it.

Richard can answer this last one after he gets off work.

Thank you! These do look like they make more sense. I am sorry for the earlier confusion as far as my round-about method of getting from point a to point b. Some days it just seems to take me longer to get where I'm going. I see I was most definitely off base for #'s 1 & 3. At least I have one right so far. So for the near future, 1 through 3 have been answered, but I'm sure people will discuss them as they wish.

Cool
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PostSubject: Re: The strength of forty men...   Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:57 am

Varchild_Marquee wrote:
If a god uses a miracle to give an average (d6 Body) individual in his tribe the strength of ten select men (d8 body) for the duration of one battle. (Minor Alteration, Household scale Miracle. right?) I think I have defining Miracles down, but conflict... This is where the confusion starts:
I am not sure that this isn't two miracles...

1) Enhance the individual's Body to d8 (a Minor Alteration on Individual scale - 3 belief if just for one round of a conflict, or 6 belief if for the entire conflict)

2) Give him the power of a household unit*. I would argue this is a Trival Alteration** on a Household scale as you are not increasing his Die type just the scale. For one round of a conflict this costs 4 belief, for the entire conflict is costs 8 belief).

I guess you could combine the two miracles and it would be a Minor Alteration on a Household scale costing 6 belief for 1 round or 12 belief for one entire conflict. This works out only slightly cheaper than paying the seperate costs (6 versus 7 for one round, 12 versus 14 for teh conflict) so I guess either way is fine.

*Page 89 of NGH when talking about Heroes clarifies that "he actually fights with the
strength of 10–90 people: if he’s fighting ten people, you’ll roll one die, and if he’s fighting ninety, you’ll roll 9 (your number of dice are equal to your opponent’s)."


**Actually I would say it is an Innovation as effectively you are creating more resources, however NGH clearly indicates, for Heroes at least, that this is an Alteration: "Miracles that enhance a mortal’s existing abilities cost the normal amount of Belief for a Miracle of the appropriate scale, and they are always alterations (as opposed to innovations). For example, mortals can normally fight, so empowering a hero with the ability to fi ght as well as a hundred warriors simply enhances his normal ability."


Varchild_Marquee wrote:
1.) That altered unit goes into combat and is facing four household scale units, then both sides roll 4 dice, right?
Correct, as stated above giving an individual the power to fight on a household scale gives him the ability to roll the same number of dice as his opponent (assuming they are household scale also).

Varchild_Marquee wrote:
2.) But if the altered unit is facing 1 Village scale unit, then both sides only get 1 dice and the household scale (altered) unit is reduced to rolling with a d4 instead of his d8. Am I still on target with this?
I believe this to be correct, he rolls dice equal to the number of tokens of his opponent, but because he is of a different scale he drops two die sizes from d8 to d4.

Varchild_Marquee wrote:
3.) The altered unit is facing four above-average individual units (d6+2). The altered unit rolls 1d8. The individual units would not roll, having been reduced to 1 +2? So 3 each?
I believe the altered unit would roll 4d8 (as he is facing 4 oppponent tokens) whilst the above average individuals would roll "d1"+2 each, so yes your are correct, their totals would each be 3.

Varchild_Marquee wrote:
The NGH, at first says while normally you would roll one dice for each side (village scale conflict), because the qualities differ in the units on one side, you have to roll for each household size unit. So, there would be a roll of 9d6 and 1d8, and on the other side 10d8.

However in the same paragraph without any set up for this surprise point, it then says Fate has two options: to use the average or more populous resource, or to split the conflict into separate conflicts.
I agree, it is a little contradictory. I can't see why you can't just roll the mixed dice pool and resolve as normal as one big conflict.

Varchild_Marquee wrote:
4.) Okay, what if the altered unit is working with 9 other household size units of average skill (d6) against a village scale veteran unit (d8 body)?
[...]
The example given for the latter doesn't match the example set up for the explanation of this problem in the NGH (p. 76), and that is partly what has me confused.

So what is the default ruling for this scenario?
Roll 1d8 vs. 1 for the altered unit's side (because the altered unit won't make a difference)?
Roll 10d8 vs. 9d6 plus 1d8? ...or...
Roll 1d8 vs. 1d8 and 9d6 vs. 9d8?
I would probably go with Roll 10d8 vs. 9d6 & 1d8, the latter being for the altered individual.

The only reason it is a lttle more complicated is because the altered individual has a variable dice pool depending on the number of opponents he is facing. For example if the player controlling the altered individual came up with a scheme to split the opposing forces it could split into two conflicts:
Altered Individual vs 80 of the veterans so Household scale and 8d8 vs 8d8 (altered individual's dice match number of opposing tokens).
...and...
9 house hold size standard units vs. the remaining 20 veterans (2 house hold size units) - this would be 9d6 vs 2d8!
Basically the altered individual is better off taking on as many people as he could individually!

Personally I wish p89 pf NGH had not indicated that an individual embued with household scale miracles acts as a variable number of units at that scale. I think imbuing him as the minimum number of units for that scale would be better, i.e. the individual counts as 10 men if empowered with Household scale power, or 100 men if empowered at Village scale. When I run NGM I will probably make this change (which houserule would also change my answers to the above scenarios).

Now the last question I have... Regarding special units...

Varchild_Marquee wrote:
5.) Can you have a special unit valued as a specific number of units?

For instance, a party of 12 explorers encounter a beast of monsterous proportions that acts as 4 household size units in combat. Thus, the beast would require four successful unit defeats to remove all its resources before it fell completely. While at the same time, though the beast survives multiple hits, the explorers are still able to reduce the threat by depleting the number of units worth of diceeach time it takes a loss.
I am not sure that is specifically disallowed in the book, but I think it is a great idea, especially if the monster fits with that idea e.g. a Hydra where each "unit" can represent one of its heads Smile
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PostSubject: Re: The strength of forty men...   Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:21 am

I just re-read the section on Miracles, and I realized as I was reading it, the Effect (Alteration or Innovation) has nothing to do with affecting the scale of a unit from Individual to Household or vice versa. In addition, the Power of a miracle alters dice size, or increases rolls with bonuses or penalties, but also never affects the scale of the unit.

So my scenarios are completely irrelevant. You can't have an individual with the strength of ten men (because that would be household scale, but he will always fight as an individual scale unit) let alone a man that fights with the strength of forty.

Unless you can think of how to define a miracle that would affect the scale of a unit (from Individual to Household, or higher).

Digital Mage was right, what I was trying to do was two Miracles, and one of them is a kind of miracle the rules don't cover permitting.

So the God could increase the single warrior's prowess from average to veteran (d6 to d8) with a Minor Alteration (increases an existing value one step), but the God could never make the scale of the unit function at a larger or smaller scale than it is. Or could it?
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PostSubject: Re: The strength of forty men...   Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:52 am

Hi Varchild,

To be honest I was confused at first, but I see the notion of The Strength of Fourty Men, as a valid miracle. Digital is right as it is two miracles, but there is nowhere in the rules which state you cannot make an individual unit fight as fourty men.

My philosophy on the miracles is this, if it is within reason and your group can agree on the miracle then yes you can do it.
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PostSubject: Re: The strength of forty men...   Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:17 am

Varchild_Marquee wrote:
but the God could never make the scale of the unit function at a larger or smaller scale than it is. Or could it?
I think you can! NGH specifically mentions this (albeit when talking about creating a permanently endowed hero) on page 89 under the Scale section. I think you could use the same rules for less permanent miracles just assuming a base miracle cost equal to a Trivial Alteration (i.e. +0 die change).

As for whether it is one or two miracles, creating Artifacts and Heroes does specifically allow for combining: "In some ways, creating a hero or artifact is like combining several Miracles into one."
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PostSubject: Re: The strength of forty men...   Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:37 pm

So a lone farmer's home is being raided by forty barbarians. As his god I say, "Noble farmer, I grant you the strength of forty men to defend your home!" (But of course he can't hear me cause I'm not addressing him directly from my Celestial abode.) Then I proceed to imbue him with a Trivial Alteration (+0 Die increase) Miracle with a Household scale, because I want to increase how many dice he rolls, not what size dice he rolls, and figure out my Belief cost and spend it. He then rolls equal dice to his enemies and single handedly defends his home, or possibly loses his home and croaks in the process. is it that simple?


Also, would this be Transformation or Creation?
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PostSubject: Re: The strength of forty men...   Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:02 pm

I think what they've said is:

1) A miracle to increase his scale by one step, a Minor Alteration.
2) A miracle to increase the dice rolled by three, a Major Alteration.
3) Add the two, this gives total miracle cost
4) It might be cheaper just to do a Significant Alteration, raising his scale to 100. He rolls one dice, the attackers roll one dice of two types lower than their normal die.

Disclaimer: I'm mortal. I make mistakes. The above may be one of them.
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PostSubject: Re: The strength of forty men...   Tue Feb 26, 2008 3:16 am

Varchild_Marquee wrote:
Then I proceed to imbue him with a Trivial Alteration (+0 Die increase) Miracle with a Household scale, because I want to increase how many dice he rolls, not what size dice he rolls, and figure out my Belief cost and spend it. He then rolls equal dice to his enemies and single handedly defends his home, or possibly loses his home and croaks in the process. is it that simple?
Assuming the rules for Heroes can be extrapolated to temporary Miracles, then yes, it is that simple. But remember the duration factor will also determine whether the boost is for a single round of conflict or the whole conflict - if you make it permanent you make the farmer a hero!

As I previously said I would be more inclined to say that individual should be scaled up in factors of 10 i.e. as 10 men (household), as 100 men (village scale) etc and then just roll one die for the individual, just at a different scale. This is a house rule though!

In your example I could thus imbue the farmer with the Strength of 10 men and have him roll 1 die vs the bandits' 4 dice. Alternatively I could imbue the farmer with the Strength of 100 men (a village scale miracle) and roll 1 die vs the bandit's 4 dice, but the bandit's dice would be 2 steps less (e.g. d8 to d4).

Varchild_Marquee wrote:
Also, would this be Transformation or Creation?
I would say it is Transformation as you are enhancing the farmer's existing ability to fight (the same reason p89 indicates it is an Alteration rather than an Innovation).
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PostSubject: Re: The strength of forty men...   Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:11 pm

Something went whizzing on past as a side issue in this discussion which surprised me.

One of Varchild's examples/questions way up at the beginning of this topic asked (sorry, paraphrasing rather than quoting): If we have a unit with a bonus to the die roll, and the unit is outnumbered so that their die type shrinks, how is it calculated? In particular, his example included a unit with a +2 to their roll, sufficiently outnumbered that their die type went down past d4 to "1"--for a final result of 1+2=3.

I was surprised to find that unquestioned, and I'm assuming it was just because of all the confusion regarding the primary topic of increasing the Scale of a single individual.

I'd have thought that in such a situation, the bonus would vanish by stages as the die type was reduced. The highest modifier to a die (plus or minus) is half the die size; thus a modifier can't be worse than d6-3 or d12-6, better than d8+4 or d4+2, etc. as appropriate for the die type.

And I had just assumed that this held true as die types change with scale imbalances: A d8+3 Household-scale unit facing a Village-scale unit would lose 2 die sizes, and thus would roll a d4. But the maximum modifier for a d4 is +2, so the final die roll would be d4+2, not d4+3. And in particular, if it were reduced another step, it'd get a *1*. No modifiers (positive or negative) allowed.

Taking it to something of an extreme: let's look at a single individual who's very well-trained and well-equipped, and thus is a d10+5 Individual unit. (Not a Hero, though, and thus without benefit of particular Divine favor--a really well-equipped salamander slaver, perhaps.) What happens if he gets swarmed by an entire Village? He loses 4 die sizes, obviously (thus dropping from d10 through d8, d6, and d4 to a 1)...but what happens to his bonuses? If he keeps them, his 1 becomes a 1+5 = 6 *and he cannot lose* against ordinary d6 humans. The way I was assuming the rules went, his 1 would be exactly that, a *1*...and he'd be toast unless the mob of humans rolled really really badly. Mind you, he'd still win more often than not against 10 to 1 odds, as he'd still be d6+3 at that scale. And that makes sense to me: a vastly superior and better-equipped opponent could well take on 10-1 odds...but NOBODY other than a Hero with the direct favor of a God is going to survive a 100-strong angry mob.

So...how DOES a Scale change affect die roll bonuses/penalties?
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PostSubject: Re: The strength of forty men...   Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:46 am

Good catch - I guess the bonus would be reduced appropriately.
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PostSubject: Re: The strength of forty men...   Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:50 pm

I'd suggest leaving the bonus as-is *until* it exceeds the maximum bonus allowed at the new smaller die size. So if you have a d8+3 unit that gets reduced somehow to d6, it'd still get the +3 bonus...but if it got bumped down to a d4, the bonus would reduce to a +2 (the maximum allowed for a d4).

I'm not sure if that's what DigitalMage meant or not, so I thought I'd be as explicit as possible.
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PostSubject: Re: The strength of forty men...   Mon Mar 24, 2008 6:45 pm

wow... maybe so... looks like the bonus would go poof... huh... great catch tygerr
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PostSubject: Re: The strength of forty men...   Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:44 am

tygerr wrote:
I'm not sure if that's what DigitalMage meant or not, so I thought I'd be as explicit as possible.
yeah, reduce the bonus by just enough to avoid exceeding the maximum for the final die type.
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